Ep 95. Busting myths and calming anxiety around COVID-19 with Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence

Mar 30, 2020 | Anxiety, Blog, Podcast

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In this episode I am joined by Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence, we discuss:

  • Why social distancing is so important 
  • Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence shares her COVID-19 anxiety tips 
  • Busting some myths 
  • The good things that can come out of this crisis 

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Hello and welcome to the Calmer You Podcast. This is your host, Chloe Brotheridge. I’m a coach, a hypnotherapist, and I’m the author of The Anxiety Solution and Brave New Girl. And this podcast is all about helping you to become your calmest, happiest and most confident self.

Chloe Brotheridge: So, welcome to this episode. This is a COVID-19 themed episode. Today, after this week, I’m going to be going back to my pre-recorded episodes that I planned, obviously, before this whole situation kicked off. So, perhaps that will be a bit of distraction, a bit more normality to get back to. So, hopefully I’ll look forward to that.

Today’s guest

But this week, I’m talking to the wonderful Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence, who is a GP, and she has been sharing a lot about the facts around COVID-19, and busting a lot of myths and helping people to feel calmer and less anxious by spreading helpful information. So, I really wanted to speak to her about this topic.

So, she shares about how she’s handling it, how her job has changed as a result of this crisis. We talk about the importance of physical distancing. She busts some of the most common myths that she hears and she shares her tips for feeling calm in the face of the situation.

I also want to let you know that I’ve created a new tool kit which is designed to help you to feel calm and resilient in uncertain times. You can check out on my website at calmer-you.com/benddontbreak. So, that’s calmer-you.com/benddontbreak. So, let’s get into the interview with Dr. Frankie.

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Chloe: Welcome, Dr. Frankie. Thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?

Frankie Jackson-Spence: I’m good, thank you. Thanks for having me on.

Chloe: I, like many people, have been watching a lot of your Instagram stories over the past couple of weeks and they’ve been so, so helpful. So, I really wanted to get you on to talk about everything that’s going on at the moment and your professional opinion on things. Can you share a little bit about your work and what kind of doctor you are and how you help people?

Introduction to Dr. Frankie Jackson Spence

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Yes. So, my name is Dr. Frankie Jackson Spence. I’m an NHS junior doctor. So, I’m a foundation year-2 doctor, and I’m currently working in general practice. So, that’s where I am at the moment, which has massively seen some changes with this pandemic, which we can talk about. But yes, I’m not in a hospital actually on the general practice frontline, I guess.

Chloe: Okay. So, that’s obviously you’re a GP. People are coming in with their day-to-day kind of issues. And how has that changed then recently in terms of what kind of people you’re seeing and speaking to?

Typical day

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: So, a typical day of a GP would be seeing a patient, sort of every 10 to 15 minutes, face to face. And a couple of weeks ago, when this all started to get pretty serious, we had to make some overnight changes, basically where we shut the doors and we basically turned everything to telephone consultations and e-consultations. So, we’re really trying to avoid the footfall in surgery, because obviously anyone could be carrying this virus. And a lot of the vulnerable group of people have to come to the GP regularly.

So, it’s been a very big change really, going from seeing people face to face all the time to actually seeing them, over the phone or even by video chat.

Chloe: Wow. That’s so interesting. How do you think that affects things? Do you find it? It’s as effective, doing it on the phone or online.

Online vs in person

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: So, in some ways, I think it’s good because it means you can see a lot more patients per hour. So, a phone conversation or an e-consultation will take me about half the time as a face-to-face consultation, because you think about the little old lady that needs to come in and take a coat off and things. It is all time that’s not really spent doing medicine.

So, in one way, that’s good. In one way that’s not so good, because obviously that’s a risk for burn out for doctors, if they’re many more patients. Usually in a typical day, I might see 30 patients. And now I could be getting 50 plus. So, that is one big change.

Phone treatment can work well for some cases

The second thing is that it is a positive because a lot of people come to the GP with things that we really can deal with over the phone. You know, if someone comes in and they just need a repeat prescription or they need some contraception or they might have something simple, like a viral cough, not quite the COVID cough, but the general viral coughs. We don’t actually need to see them to treat that.

So, in some ways people now are learning that many trivial things they can treat themselves at home. And I think that going forward, if people can remember that during this crisis they managed to treat that fungal nail infection at home, it will really reduce pressures on the NHS going forward.

Learning new ways of working

Chloe: That’s such an interesting one, isn’t it? And good to remember that there were some positive things coming out of this crisis that actually we’re adapting and we’re learning new ways of working and being and is opening up possibilities and kind of forcing us to change in a way that’s really positive.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Yeah, absolutely. And in the NHS, anyone that’s listening that works in healthcare will know that anything it takes months to process. If a practice comes up with a new idea, it takes three or four months for that to be put in place. We’re making these kind of changes overnight now.

So, in terms of efficiency at a managerial level of the NHS, we can really sort of be more fast paced and forward thinking, going forward, because we know we can make these changes much quicker than previously done.

Chloe: That’s so fascinating and good. I used to work for the NHS, many years ago, as a nutritionist and I remember how hard it was to make changes because everything’s got to be done through this massive system. So, it does take a long time. And that’s fascinating as they’re taking things so more easily.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Yeah.

Advice for COVID-19

Chloe: Can we talk about some other advice that you’ve been giving to people? Because I think it seems like your Instagram page has become such a source of credible advice to people. There’s lots of people with anxious questions that they’re asking and you’re putting their minds at ease so much.

Can you talk about the whole thing about staying home and why that’s so important and why you’re really recommending and everyone’s recommending that now?

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Well, first of all, anyone could be carrying the virus. There’s lots of people who are young, fit and healthy who can be tested positive for the virus, but actually show no symptoms. So, if they go out, even to the supermarket, and they touch something in the supermarket or they get within two meters of anyone else, they could pass that virus off without realizing. So, it’s not just people who are symptomatic that need to be following this social distancing advice; it’s everyone.

Clearing the virus

And the virus can’t pass on your front door. If you stay home and you’re a carrier for the virus, you’ll clear that virus in one to two weeks and therefore you then can’t pass it on.

So, essentially, models have shown that social distancing can reduce the spread by sort of 70/80 percent. So, it really does work scientifically. But only if people adhere to it.

And it seems like such a simple thing. If everyone in the world stayed home for two weeks, the virus would essentially go. It’s crazy.

Chloe: Yes. Yeah. I wonder how many people are adhering to it. Are there any? Do you know about that?


Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: I really think people are struggling to adhere to it, because I feel like my question and answer session on my Instagram stories has been really effective for easing anxieties. But also, some of the questions I receive kind of concerning because people will say, “I’ve been advised only to leave the house once a day for exercise. Can I walk the dog is one and go for a run as one?”

And people seem to be trying to ask me to sort of give them permission to make loopholes in this guidance. You know, it’s just, “Stay at home. No, you can’t go out twice a day. You’ve been advised to go once.” So, I do think people will struggle with that.

I also think people really will struggle with not seeing friends and family. It seems almost an alien concept that your elderly grandparents, who are vulnerable, for example, need you more than ever during this time and yet the one thing you’ve been told to do is stay as far away from them as you can.

We are all struggling

So, I think people are struggling. And even myself, I’m struggling. I’m a really busy person. I love nipping out. I tend to be one of those people that shops daily, rather than weekly. So, I’ll just nip to the shops to see what I fancy each day. And now, I’m really hoping to kind of change my entire way of living and plan for one or two weeks in advance. Yeah, I think people are struggling.

Chloe: Do you think it’s that — I suppose this whole situation is kind of so overwhelming for people and then it’s moving so quickly, the advice seems to be changing or has in the last couple of weeks.

Do you think there’s just confusion around that or it’s almost as though we’re trying to find a loophole? We’re kind of saying to ourselves, “Oh, surely, I can just do this or do that.”

The Numbers

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: I think if you have no symptoms, you feel completely well and you haven’t been personally affected by this virus, in terms of you don’t really know anyone that’s been hospitalized with it, it’s easy to think, “Oh, it’s not that bad. It’s just like a flu.” But the government building a 4 thousand-bed military hospital at the Excel Centre in London.

If that doesn’t scare people, I don’t know what will. Because that shows that we’ve not hit a peak yet. We’re expecting 4 thousand more people to be hospitalized. And we know that only about 4 percent of people who get the virus need hospital. That’s quite scary numbers.

So, I think that until it hits a bit closer to home for people, people really will struggle because it’s so easy to think, “Oh, I don’t have any symptoms, I’ll just pop out.”

Chloe: Yes. Yeah. That’s such a good reminder. And yeah, that really hits home; that image, I think, just to remind ourselves of how important that is.

Social distancing vs physical distancing

One thing that I saw; I think the World Health Organization, I don’t know if they’ve changed that advice from calling it social distancing to physical distancing to remind us that we can still — I don’t know, is that to remind us that we can still be sociable, but obviously not in in physical presence with each other? It’s kind of a nicer term maybe.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Yeah. So, social distancing and social isolation, if you have symptoms; they’re different things. It doesn’t have to mean loneliness. I don’t know about you, but I actually feel more connected than ever to my friends because we’re video calling all the time and there’s lots of apps popping up where you can have multiple video calls with lots of friends at one time and people really seem to be connected online now.

Video vs in person

So, I think, yeah, is it really that different going to meet for a coffee or sitting for 40 minutes on video call? I’m not sure. Is that different? Really?

Chloe: That’s so true. That’s so true. Yeah, I think one of the apps is called House Party.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Yeah.

Chloe: Someone told me about that today. And Zoom, obviously, we’re speaking on Zoom now. Yeah. So, 0074here’s lots of ways to connect. And yeah. So, many people seem to be saying that that they are more connected to people than ever before because we’re checking in with each other more, I guess.

Have you checked in on people?

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Exactly. And it’s really shown us that what matters right now, you know, the things that we used to think mattered, like, “Have I eaten in the new restaurant that’s just opened up in London” or “Have I been to this, from my industry, fitness and wellness event this week.” And actually, now what’s important is, “Have I checked up on the people I care about?” “Is the person I know that’s self-isolating on their own for a few weeks, are they okay?” And it’s really kind of made people more grounded, I feel.

Chloe: Yeah, totally. Getting back to what matters most. And I suppose our lives have been simplified in a way. I’m hearing of a lot of people cooking and they never cook and gardening.

 Chloe: Yeah. Have you been cooking? What have you been making?

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Everything. I poached eggs nearly every day. And that used to be a weekend luxury.

Chloe: Yes.

Cooking during Covid

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: I’ve made a lot of things. We normally buy like a premade sauce to make a curry or something; I’ve now been making it from scratch. I definitely find a lot more free time.

Chloe: That’s so good. So, good. Well, first, I wanted to know how you personally handling it as someone that’s working in the NHS. And also, how do you think, if you’ve got other friends who are working maybe in intensive care and that sort of thing, how are they handling everything?

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: So, for me personally, it is a lot busier at work. As I mentioned, everything that’s the norm. The way that I’ve been trained to work is completely different. I’ve been trained to be a doctor, face to face, to physically put my hands on patients, examine them, listen to their chest, for example.

And now, I do feel like there’s a barrier between me and the patient because it’s via video call or a telephone consult, you don’t quite get the same social cues. So, in some ways, it makes work more difficult.

Sense of teamwork

But actually, there’s a real sense of teamwork and togetherness in the NHS. General practice is actually quite an isolating specialty. You all sit in your individual rooms within the clinic and you don’t really communicate with other doctors that much.

So, now there’s a lot more team huddles. You’re metres apart, of course. But actually, checking everyone is adjusting okay, coping okay. And also, a lot of people at work have been personally affected by the virus, either them or a family member. So, there’s a lot of checking up on each other.

So, in terms of going to work, actually, it’s quite pleasant. It is actually quite an exciting time to be a doctor, because now, more than ever, people are realizing how important the NHS is. And even last night, when there was the big talks with the carers, that was quite an emotional moment.

So, from my perspective, yes, I’m busier. But this is what it is to be a doctor and it’s like everyone’s time to come forward is kind of happening. So, that’s good.

General practice

I do feel quite privileged to be working in general practice at the moment. I was actually due to start in the emergency department at a big hospital, the Royal London Hospital, next week, actually. But the seniors have decided that it’s too dangerous to switch trainees over. So, obviously training a new trainee up is a time where they might be under skilled and we don’t have the resources to do that.

So, a lot of my friends that have been working in intensive care or the emergency departments are now continuing to work there. And I think their stories are quite different. You know, the intensive care is a full. They’re having to create other wards for the confirmed COVID patients.

What is happening to elective surgeries?

A lot of elective surgeries are being cancelled and the actual theatre rooms where we’d normally do operations are now being extended intensive care. So, actually, I think that hospital staff have got a lot worse than general practice.

And of course, I speak to some of my friends who are physically treating these patients. Getting up close and personal, and a lot of them all struggling mentally with the fact that they have to go home to their families.

Chloe: Yeah, that’s really tough. That’s really tough. I’m really hoping that this situation can help us to fund the NHS better. And I really appreciate the NHS and all the staff. And I hope the government are going to take better care of the NHS.

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COVID-19 Myths

Chloe: Are there any myths that you can bust? Because I, for one, had loads of these copy and paste messages on WhatsApp or Facebook saying, “Drink hot drinks” and “Lie under the full moon” or whatever it is; these things you’ve got to do. Are there certain myths that you’ve come across that you can bust for us.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Yeah, absolutely. I think people always come up with these myths because they’re kind of sexy and it’s exciting and it gives people hope, but actually, they’re all a whole load of rubbish.

I’ve heard some like, yeah, drinking hot drinks is better than drinking cold drinks because the virus can’t survive in hot temperatures.

Does heat kill the virus?

So, that’s not true. The virus will be killed in extremely hot temperatures, but not the heat of a hot drink. And certainly, having a sip of a hot tea isn’t going to kill the virus if you’re carrying it. So, that’s a myth. You can drink all the ice coffees you want right now.

I’ve heard some that gargling salt water will kill the virus. I feel like people always turn to the kitchen cupboard for these natural methods of medicine. People are saying that garlic bites the virus or garlic tablets or gargling salt water when actually these things aren’t doing anything.

If you’ve got a sore throat gargling, some salt water might make you feel a little bit better, but it’s not going to do anything for the virus.

Who are you getting your information from?

Chloe: Yeah, I think it’s so good to just to recognize that we need to make sure where we’re getting our information from. So, from a doctor, from the NHS, from the World Health Organization and just being aware that I suppose there are all going to be companies that are trying to profit from there.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Absolutely.

Chloe: Immune boosting elixirs and we shouldn’t waste our money or put too much hope on that. Yeah.

How a healthy diet helps

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Whilst a — you know, this as a nutritionist, but a diet that’s very balanced, focusing on good nutrition, puts you in better stead to fight off any cold and flu. But no one food group is immune boosting. A healthy diet in general might support a well-functioning immune system, but there isn’t any particular food, any food that claims to be an antioxidant, that actually helps you fight a virus off more effectively.

So, people just need to really question everything they read. If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. And if it was as simple as gaggling hot water, then the ICUs wouldn’t be filled with people that are requiring assisted ventilation.

Chloe: Totally. Do you have any specific advice for people that are pregnant or that maybe have more compromised immune systems? Is there specific advice for those people who might be especially anxious right now?

COVID and pregnancy

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: So, pregnant women and people who either have an immune suppressive condition or on immune suppressive medications, for example, inflammatory bowel disease or arthritis, those people are considered in the high-risk population.

So, if you are considered high risk, the NHS will have written to these people this week a letter advising them to be particularly stringent with the social distancing guidelines for the next 12 weeks. So, this doesn’t mean you necessarily have to be housebound 12 weeks, but it means being particularly cautious.

For pregnant women, I feel like it must be so much more anxiety feeling for them because they’re trying to grow a baby, they’re worrying about the kind of world bringing a baby into you right now. I just want to reiterate that the guidance for pregnant women is actually precautionary.

So, we know that other viruses, such as chicken pox, for example, or rubella, affects pregnant women more seriously than non-pregnant women. And we also know that having a fever during pregnancy isn’t preferable as that can sometimes interfere with things. However, we don’t have any actual evidence from this virus (So, the corona virus) that it has any adverse effects on pregnancy.

Guidance for pregnant women

So, I just want to reassure pregnant women that whilst it’s still an area that lacks evidence and lacks literature, at the moment, the guidance is precautionary. They’re not saying that these pregnant women are more risk of either catching the virus or having a more severe illness.

So, the current guidance from the Royal College of Gynaecologists and Obstetricians, which is the governing body for that department, are still advising pregnant women to go to all the antenatal screening, for example. I know a lot of women are scared about going to have a checks because they don’t want to go to hospital. But the guidance is still to go.

Chloe: Okay. Yeah, that’s good to know, I think, for people. I suppose I mean, what I’m hearing from loads of people is that this is one of the most anxiety provoking things that’s ever happened.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Yeah.

Chloe: And it’s happening on such a big scale as almost everyone in the world is probably affected by this to some extent. And I think our anxiety levels are just, you know, whether people have anxiety already, this is probably just pushing it off or even people who are normally on the calmer side, this is a very stressful event.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Yes.

Dealing with anxiety around COVID-19

Chloe: What can you say to those sorts of people? What do you advise in terms of that?

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Well, I think that, as you mentioned, people who have pre-existing anxiety, and there are lots of people with health anxiety seats specifically, who we find in this {indistinct 23:56}. And the people who haven’t actually suffered from anxiety before will be having these new feelings. And they’re not quite sure how to deal with them.

I think some tips for dealing with anxiety is to try and create a new normal. So, some of this is coming from uncertainty. The fact that every time we log onto the news at 5:00 p.m., we don’t know what we’re going to be faced with.

So, in some ways, my tips would be to create a normal routine; a new normal routine. So, if you’re someone who enjoys getting out house to go to work and you have your little routine, try and create a new one at home. Having some structure to the day definitely helps you get through the day on a day-by-day basis.

I think that keeping up with some physical activity will help ease anxiety because we know that exercise releases endorphins which are happy hormones and that more of a mood boost.

Being mindful of your news consumption

I think, being mindful of how much news you’re consuming. So, if you know that every time you watch the news and you’re faced with the numbers rising and the death toll and horrific scenes of what’s happening in hospitals, don’t put that to yourselves. Go on, find the guidance. So, you make sure you’re managing a self safely. But really, you choose how much you consume.

I think another thing is to stay socially connected with other people. Talk about how you’re feeling. I think lots of people are feeling anxiety and actually, sharing that feeling with someone else makes you think, “Okay, at least it’s not just me. We are all in this together.” And even people that you think are really brave and strong might tell you, yeah, they’re feeling really vulnerable at the moment, too. And that actually can be quite comforting.

And lastly, of course, everything else that we used to see in general practice, for example, anxiety, depression, heart attacks, strokes, those things are still important.

Seek support for mental health

So, if you feel like your thoughts that you’re having and your mental well-being is suffering, then please still seek support from general practice. We can direct you to the appropriate support; whether that be talking therapies, medication or even local support services. I think that you don’t have to think you can’t come to the doctor about something just because of COVID. We can still help you.

Chloe: I think that’s such an important point, actually, because it almost seems as though this situation has just hijacked everything. It has taken over. No one’s thinking about Brexit anymore. That’s like, “Oh, last year.”

And yet, people are still going to be having their day-to-day health issues and depression and anxiety. And it’s good to know that they can still go and speak to their GP, even if it’s on the phone or video link or still be seeking support because your experience is still valid, even though there’s is other stuff going on as well.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Exactly.

Chloe: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing those tips.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: It’s okay.

Chloe: Are there any other common questions that you found yourself getting asked that you can answer and share with us?

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: I’ve had a lot of questions about people with asthma. Asthma is a really common lung condition that a lot of the population have. Asthma has been grouped into the vulnerable population.

And what I think is important in that people with any chronic condition, whether that be asthma or any other disease they might see the doctor about, is to go on to specialist websites for advice. So, for example, the government website might tell you that asthma is considered vulnerable. But if you go on the Asthma UK website, it will tell you exactly which group of asthma ticks would be considered vulnerable.

Educate yourself

And actually, educating yourself a bit about the condition you have and how it might be affected will make you feel a lot better. You know, asthma is a spectrum of disease. Some people have really mild asthma and only use an inhaler when they exercise and other people have really severe asthma. What we call brittle asthma. And those people might have admissions to hospital with their breathing. So, COVID will affect those two patients differently, even though they both got the same asthma label.

So, basically my advice there is anyone with a chronic condition, don’t just take the surface level guidance you’re getting from the government as gospel. Educate yourself. Go to the specialist sources and that will definitely give you more guidance.

Chloe: Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I guess it could be so easy. I think that the definition of anxiety is where we imagine the future and imagine the worst. And our imagination goes into overdrive, actually, really arming yourself with the facts and not necessarily going to the worst-case scenario in your mind.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Yes. I think a lot of the anxiety is coming from the fear of the unknown, and that’s a complete normal human instinct. So, actually educating ourselves within reason is definitely a good thing to do.

Chloe: Yes. Yeah. I really liked — I think you shared something on your Instagram, which was a clip of this morning. And Felix Scofield is reading out this letter from a Chinese teacher, I think.

Make the best of what we can’t control

And it was just a really quite positive letter all about how can we, as much as possible, accept this situation for what it is and kind of embrace the fact that we’re home and make the best of it and try not to control things.

Because I suppose a lot of a lot of anxiety, again, is about trying to control things and feeling unsafe because we’re outside of control. And perhaps I’ll post a link in the show notes of this episode to that letter if people want to read it. I really liked that.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: It was a great clip. It was basically a lady who’s been going through this in China and saying, “You know, we’re coming out the other side”, it becomes less scary. It becomes more normal.

You know, if you worry about something before it even happens, you basically put yourself through it twice.

Final tips

All people need to do is stay at home, don’t go out very much. If they do, keep to small groups, like maximum one other person; keep two meters apart. Go to the supermarket when it’s not busy.

And actually, this will pass. This is temporary. I think that’s the way that I keep waking up in the morning and I think we’re one step closer, one day closer to this all being over.

Chloe: That’s a good thought; remembering that this, too, shall pass. And we’ll all come out on the other side of this.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Yeah. And I think people should use this time that they have to do everything on that list that they want to do, that they never get time to do it. For example, I’d just read on my website because I’ve been putting that off the whole year. So, far I’ve had more time to do it because in the evenings I don’t have socializing and I don’t have events to go to.

So, they use this free time to invest in yourself so that when you come out of this period, you really can get off to a good start.

Chloe: Definitely, and I think it’s important to remember that there are some positives coming out of this. That we are learning things about ourselves, we’re connecting in different ways.

Are there any other positives that you’ve noticed or that you imagine there might be?

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: So, I think that we’d become a really technology-driven society. If you went out to a restaurant, you’d see so many people on their phones, not really talking to each other. And I think it’s really going to make us appreciate that going out with dinner is actually a treat.

I remember when I was growing up, we didn’t go out for a meal when it was someone’s birthday. And now, I live in London and probably go out every week, if not twice a week and out of convenience. And I think it will really make us appreciate the little luxuries that we have in life, rather than just considering them normal.

I think a lot of people have become more connected with their families, being at home more rather than always being out and being busy. We’ve realized how important exercise is to us in the outdoors. I don’t know about you, but I really value that one trip outdoors to exercise now.

Chloe: Oh, my gosh. Yes. Yes.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Whereas, why was I ever going to sit inside when now I’m dying to go on a run every day.

Chloe: Yeah. I like watching people’s exercise setups at home. People usually make tins of beans or different things that they fashion to try and exercise.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: It’s just kind of making us go back to a more simple life, isn’t it?

Chloe: Yeah.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Even in terms of other things like dating life and things. I feel like people now are rarely going back to a conversation and do you actually get along with that person or was it going to a nice fancy restaurant or a nice holiday that you liked? It’s actually, “Do you like the person you’re with?”

Chloe: It’s fascinating. Yeah. That’s going to be a really interesting thing to see what people do. What people do for dating. Is it all going to be –

Frankie: Yeah.

Chloe: I don’t know, a lit about sex?

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Are we going to go back to face-to-face dating or are we going to move away from dating apps and go back to talking in real life? It’s all interesting, isn’t it?

Chloe: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So, I definitely think — I try to focus on some of the good things, accept the situation that we’re in, be in the present moment, connect with people. All those things are so important to remember right now.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Yeah.

Chloe: Amazing. Thank you so much for everything that you shared. I hope it’s going to be really helpful for people. Where can people find out more about you and follow you online, on your website and that sort of thing.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: So, my Instagram and Twitter handles are @drfrankiejs and my website is www.drfrankiejs.com.

Chloe: Amazing. And I’ll post all those links in the show notes as well for people. Thank you so much for speaking to me, Frankie. It’s really, really interesting.

Dr. Frankie Jackson-Spence: Thanks for having me on. I hope that just by hearing from someone that’s on the front line that we’ll get through it. I will ease some anxieties.

Chloe: Amazing.

Frankie: Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening. I really hope that you gained a lot from this episode. Come on over to Instagram and let me know what are you taking from this episode. Find me @chloebrotheridge.

And I would love it if he would leave me a review in the podcast app on iTunes. Subscribe to the podcast, leave me a rating.

And is there someone in your life that would really benefit from this podcast? You can let them know by sharing this podcast; I’d be so, so grateful.

So, I’m just wishing you a wonderful week ahead, sending you loads of love. Hopefully, you’ll tune in again and I’ll see you soon.

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