This week on the Calmer You podcast I speak with voice coach and author of Find Your Voice, Caroline Goyder. She knows a thing or two about how to find your voice and get out of your head.
We chat about:
- What is confidence?
- Why nerves are good
- How to overcome blushing or shaking when you’re speaking
- How to improve your confidence when it comes to speaking
- Phone phobia
- And lots more!
Chloe: Hello and welcome to the Calmer You Podcast. This is your host Chloe Brotheridge, I’m a coach, a hypnotherapist and I’m the author of “the anxiety solution, and brave new girl” and this podcast is all about helping you to become your calmest happiest and most confident self. Today on the podcast, I have the pleasure of speaking to Caroline Goyder who is a voice coach, and she’s the author of the new book “Find your voice.” She is also a Ted x. Speaker and her Ted Talk has had 7 and a half million views which is really incredible. In this episode we’re talking all about confidence, particularly confidence when it comes to speaking, whether that’s speaking on a stage, speaking up in a meeting or speaking on the phone.
And this is I hope such a reassuring chat because both Caroline and I have struggled in this area before, we both admitted to having blushed in the past. And so it’s really coming from a place of her having experienced the nervousness and the fear that comes along with speaking, and having learned a lot about herself, made a lot of progress and she actually gets to help other people with that as well. So we talk about Caroline’s definition of confidence, and I think this is really interesting, not what you might be expecting. We talk about why nerves are actually a good thing and why there’s nothing to be ashamed about if you do experience nerves before speaking, it’s actually completely normal and I hope this conversation helped to normalize even more and how to know there’s nothing to be ashamed of.
We talk about how to overcome the specific things that can hold us back from speaking like blushing or shaking or speaking to the fast and Caroline shares lots of tips on growing your confidence in general, when it comes to speaking, phone phobia and people who experience this will know what I’m talking about if you’re scared of being on the phone in front of the people in the office for example or if you’re someone that maybe doesn’t like to answer the phone when people call, if it’s an unknown number for example, I’m one of these people by the way.
And we just got into loads of helpful ideas around the topic of speaking confidence, and finding your voice. So if you want to get some free resources from me on growing your confidence, boosting your self-esteem, calming anxiety, I’ve got loads of freebies on my website for you, if you had over to calmeryou.com/free and to enter your email address there, I’m going to send you mp3’s, worksheet, podcast updates and loads more. So head over to Calmeryou.com/free, so let’s get into the interview with Caroline Goyder.
Chloe: So welcome Caroline, thank you so much for joining me, how are you?
Caroline Goyder: I’m good, pleasure to be here.
Chloe: Please can you tell us what it is you do and how you came to do that you today?
What is a Voice Coach?
Caroline Goyder: So I guess you could say I’m a voice coach, which makes people think I’m going to make them sing but I’m not. [laughs]. I teach people how to feel confident when they speak and often that’s in presentations or you know big public speaking moments but it might not be… it might be that they have to do a job interview or that they’re nervous about a pitch or something but I think what links it is a spotlight moment as people in the spotlight. And I came to it because I was in that who found it difficult. So all of the stuff I teach people is stuff that I’ve really had to learn myself, it wasn’t natural when I started.
So I’m really understanding when people say I find this difficult or I get nervous because I felt that too, still do actually.
Chloe: The 1st thing that came to my mind was just remembering the oft quoted saying that “public speaking is our biggest fear, that’s more than death,” is that actually true to think?
Fear of public speaking
Caroline Goyder: I mean it’s massive, isn’t it if it is true, I don’t know about the death fear. So I don’t I can’t compare it but I know how many people, you know people who run companies, people who you see on telly, people who seem really confident, people… they all tell me that they’re nervous about these things so I just have this is something which is that everybody is nervous and that’s a really good sign. And there are a few people who don’t get nervous but that’s not a good thing. Actually, it shows that there’s a kind of a lack of empathy for your audience or a lack of awareness as to what could go wrong and actually those things are really good. So I think those are good, I think we should welcome that a bit more.
Chloe: I heard once that only psychopath doesn’t experience fear because that part that drives isn’t developed enough to, actually it’s a good thing to get nervous.
Caroline Goyder: If you feel nervous before public speaking you’re not a psychopath.
Chloe: Well done everyone. I think that’s a really interesting point about just assuming that everyone is nervous because I think we often do the opposite, and I do. I think I’m the only one that experiences this. You know everyone has got that stuff together, you know she looks so confident I definitely have had those thoughts before but actually it’s such a common universal thing to experience that.
Fear of public speaking is universal
Caroline Goyder: I think it’s totally universal and is that all just that we judge people’s outsides and we compare ourselves against the outside. And when if you kind of lived in that world for a moment you would discover that they are, they have their own kind of nerves. It’s different for all of us but I truly believe that most people feel nervous in the spotlight, and that they should welcome it.
Chloe: So why is that? That’s probably a big question but what is it about being in the spotlight whether that’s getting up on stage or even when you’re put on a spot in a meeting to answer something or you have to say the name at a workshop. What is it about those things that we get nervous? Why?
Caroline Goyder: So once I hear from people that I experienced it myself, so I can relate to it, is that fear visibility isn’t it because there’s a moment where in that meeting or that presentation everybody turns to look at you and that’s scary, it’s a risk. Now, what I know is that the something you do with that moves in terms of how you breathe before you speak that will make that feel like a good risk, you know like an exciting moment, not terrifying but what most people do because they don’t have a voice, where they the Gasps the breath and then they start to rush because fight or flight is a runaway, punch them hard on the table. And so the whole experience becomes visible in the spotlight of other people’s judgment and also out of control, it’s no wonder people don’t like that because that’s a horrible combination. It is like I don’t know… that ice skating out of control in front of people would be equally horrible.
Chloe: Kind of spiral in a sense because I think well I think can definitely relate to that and suddenly you’re aware that you get hot and you think other people can notice that and that makes you get even hotter.
Caroline Goyder: It is hideous and it is that thing that you’re standing in front of everybody looking at you and I mean to some extent they are judging you but there are ways to play with how we perceive that, because most people want to do that’s the truth, but we don’t sense that when we’re in that horrible spotlight of visibility. It just feels like a threat.
Chloe: So people out there like wishing you tripped over your words or something that… yeah they want you to do well.
Caroline Goyder: It really is and it’s true for most of us, I mean maybe there are moments in the House of Commons, you know there is certain speakers for whom that’s probably not true, that’s pretty rare, most people want you to say something interesting in a relaxed way, and that’s quite useful to remember.
The sound of your voice
Chloe: Why do people often hear people saying that they hate the sound of their own voice to the point where they don’t want to hear himself speaking, they don’t want to hear a recording or watch a video. Do you find that people say that, I often hear people say to me that they can’t believe that as a physiotherapist so you hate your own voice, so you hated it? First time, I hated that but I got used to it now and I’m fine with it but why is it that we don’t really like that?
Caroline Goyder: It’s really really normal and I hear it so often people, and I think there’s also science around this which is that the way we process our own sound is as much through the body as much through the air canal. And so when we hear our voice recorded, we’re not getting the same thing when we speak because we’re getting all this vibration that we don’t pick up on including. But I think, there’s also something around the fact that we kind of live in our heads a bit and if I think my voice is just something that sound in my brain and you know in my ears and if I don’t understand that it’s manufactured in the body, you know on the diaphragm, in the lungs, in the larynx, then when I’m speaking I might also be kind of listening to myself as a speech. And when I do that and it’s recorded, it creates a very self-conscious voice and I’m not surprised that people don’t like hearing that.
So what I say to people is if you don’t like your voice, don’t listen to it, when you speak, feel this, feel your voice, feel where it vibrates in your body, feel how the breath comes out to create it, feel what it feels like to shape it in your mouth. So that you get into your kinesthetic sense rather than obsessively judging how you’re sounding moment by moment when you speak because that’s just not way too self-conscious and then it does start to sound of this strange.
Chloe: Ok. And I really like how you talk about the voice is like an instrument and can you talk about the body being the resonator, I love that?
Our amazing voice
Caroline Goyder: Yeah, I mean I love the voice. I’d like everybody to love it a bit more because your voice is like a guitar, you have it, you know if you’re listening and you find your throat, if you just put your fingers on your larynx which is just the Adam’s apple that’s the cartilage, houses the vocal chords and behind that you just give it a shake. That houses your vocal folds, and they’re like… I mean really there is [10:26 inaudible] broadly and that when you make sounds they vibrate the folds. And so that’s the string of your guitar and then if you go lower down, if you just find your rib cage, and you just have to imagine where your bra strap is it would be if you’re not wearing a bra strap, I don’t want to gender this too much.
And at that point just below your bra strap is the diaphragm, and if you just go… Just tap that point, you can feel the sound pushes out. And that’s the hitter, the airflow coming out of your lungs, supported by you diaphragm, hits the vocal folds and it vibrates, so you’ve got a string, you’ve got to hitter and then you’ve got the body, which is like the body of the guitar and that vibrates the sound. So we have this super cool instrument within us and the more we understand the more control we have, which is nice.
Chloe: I love that, I have heard people say that if the human voice was an instrument it would be the most advanced instrument in the universe.
Caroline Goyder: It’s incredible and indeed it is an amazing thing.
Chloe: Can we talk a bit more about the fears that people have around speaking up and being heard and being seen, I suppose that comes into it as well, it might not be just about who might be about actually having their eyes on you.
Caroline Goyder: I think those are different things, there’s firstly that people will say things like you’re not clear enough, or you’re tripping over your words or we don’t like your ascent which comes up sometimes. Yeah, well I mean I think it’s changing I think that it’s in a way that’s old news but there are still some people who say that. And then there’s like you’re not loud enough, so there’s all this stuff around what we talked about in terms of trusting your voice. But then there’s another piece which is much more psychological which is about saying something that people might disagree with or people judging you or people making a decision about you because of something that you said. And I think there are lots of people who really want to focus on connection when they speak. And the truth is that sometimes when you speak connection is not necessarily the thing that’s going to happen. So if you’re in the meeting and you need to say to someone.. you know we were talking about book titles earlier say you work in publishing and you need to say I think that the title is not right.
You might go against the whole room when you say that, and sometimes in those moments you can have connection and you are going to have to stand out and you are going to have to be different. And I think that can feel very visible and very vulnerable and very scary but there are things that you can do to center yourself, and to be bold, and to be brave. You know as you talk about your work as well.
Advice for that racing heart
Chloe: So if someone, for example, has to stand up to someone and then they notice their own racing heart. And then they have that sense of just not wanting to speak, what advice would you have for them in that moment?
Caroline Goyder: I’d say understand that fight or flight is affecting you and it’s a really useful response for survival but probably it’s not helpful here because you know if we were in say that publishing meeting, you might have a different view but they’re not going to hurt you, nobody’s going to hurt you. So then what you have to understand is that you can really just center yourself quite quickly, and just say to your system you’re safe. And years ago I interviewed lots of a-list actors about this and the tips I learned is so fundamentally useful, I’ve used them ever since. And there was a lovely actress called Haley Outwell, who said that before she went on stage she was at the National at the time I interviewed her, she said you stand in the way and you just think I can feel my feet on the floor, I can feel the air on my face, I can feel the clothes on my skin, just coming back to that sensory facts, those facts takes you out of the head that’s going, oh my god they’re all looking at me, they’re really going to hate me, I’ll never work again.
Feet on floor bum on chair
And it’s just really come back to the body, and these days I just do off book which is a real mindfulness tool, feat on floor, bum on chair.
Chloe: I love that.
Caroline Goyder: It’s super cool, I think it comes from a mindfulness program in school.
Chloe: Yes. Yeah, good to remember, so coming back to the body and noticing what you’re feeling, your feet on the ground, the air, the clothes on your back, and that will help you to get out of the spiraling and kind of the mental freak out you can get into when we’re in that situation.
Caroline Goyder: And it’s just not helpful, is it.
Chloe: It can happen at the worst times, I’ve probably talked about this in the podcast before about I once was giving a presentation, I got up to speak and it went white in front of my eyes, my lungs felt like they were on fire, it was a really the weirdest sensation ever, I thought I was going to die, and when I was speaking, I had the sense that I was watching myself in sealing. So I mean that’s a dissociation where you can only come out of your body basically and somehow I managed to survive that experience and get through it. Don’t know what happened, but after that I was not keen to get up and do that again, and I think I did speak to who have had kind of bad experience with speaking, and then you know even if it is.
I had one client once who when he was 8 years old got up in front of the class and got told off for saying something incorrectly, and he was a CEO of a company and was really struggling with public speaking because of that time. So things can really stay with us I think, those sorts of experiences and kind of traumatized us.
Caroline Goyder: I think there is a trauma for people, and it’s just I think you have to be very gentle with your body, and your voice and just make it understand that an audience can feel safe. I mean my big thing is that if you can chat to 3 people you know over a glass of wine or a cup of tea, and have a relaxed conversation there’s no reason in the world why you can’t do that in front of 3000 people. And I think we just have to get rid of the whole notion of public speaking, because you know we don’t say public dancing or public singing, we just say singing dancing and speaking has kind of got this big… it’s like it’s not a big pedestal but it’s just talking, and we’re all really good at that. And I think when we allow it to feel normal and just to feel like something that we can do from our own center, from a relaxed place. The whole thing becomes more doable that you do have to understand how to set yourself 1st in that spotlight, because your body maybe is going oh scary, for all the reasons that maybe come from your pass.
Chloe: And it can make such a difference as far as if you can be centered and then learn to enjoy it, it can open up so many opportunities for people and take away so much stress, you can become this, so that’s really worth focusing and learning more about. What you say about the physical aspect, so I have blushed in public before which is not a nice thing, some people talk about shaking and those sorts of things. Do you have only insights into what you can do if they’re worried about that sort of thing happening.
Caroline Goyder: So much so, I mean I guess that the things that people ask about are blushing, and I’m a blusher by the way. So I can say this you know from a place of knowledge there’s the voice shaking, the hands shaking which also happens and there’s the going at hyper speed. Those are all things that people talk about when they have a fight or flight. So the 1st thing I would say is think about speed, because that’s you know the adrenaline coursing through your system and you do really need to get a handle on that. The thing to understand is that all speech is out-breath, certainly in English and so on the in-breath you’re posing. Now not all pauses are created equal, lots of people hold their breath on a pause and that tells the system that this is not particularly safe.
Another people do a kind of… that’s overdoing it but so you can hear, they kind of do it just that gasps on the pause because they’re rushing in their systems going to get this over with some. So I’m Caroline, I’m going to be telling you about speaking with confidence. And I’m kind of overdoing it, but that’s what’s happening and that’s saying to your system, this is unsafe. So 1st rule that you learn at drama school is you walk out on stage you relax your feet because that says to your nervous system you’re save. You breathe out and the audience don’t know what you’re doing, you close your mouth, you wait for a lovely relaxed breath in, like a lovely smell, when you have that breath, that’s when you start. And it’s kind of like stroking your nervous system, it is saying it’s Ok, yeah there’s a bit of adrenaline but you’re going to be fine.
It takes practice
And if you can set yourself up from the start, ground feet, breathe out, wave the breath in, lovely smell, of we go. Then you just stop at every full stop and take that relax breath. And the whole thing becomes a conversation, because that’s what we do when we chat. I just close mouth, wait for the breath and say the next thing and that’s how speaking should be. But you do, it is something that is like driving lessons, it doesn’t come immediately, you do have to practice it. So I always say to people put voice note, practice it with those lovely relaxed pauses, and then they’re so surprised because they go that pause felt like hours, and they hear it is nothing.
So once you go that in place and then you find that the voice won’t shake anymore, because the voice is shaking because your system is saying punched it and run away. And if you say to your system, you’re safe, your voice doesn’t shake. With blushing, I mean as I say if I think about blushing, I can blush but the thing that I’ve been taught to me which works for me is if you focus your attention out. So notice what you can see in the room, notice someone smiling at you, as soon as your energy goes off you, you’re not thinking oh my God I’m blushing and they’re looking, and the whole thing will die down because it’s often the story that we’re telling ourselves about blushing that makes us blush more. It’s weird isn’t it?
Chloe: Yeah totally. I just try to accept myself for the fact that happened, and say I’m Ok with that happening, if that happens it’s not a big deal, easier said than done I know. And I have a kind of acceptance I once heard someone said be cool with blushing, like I’m cool with it, I have been some times with it.
Caroline Goyder: It’s nice in a way, it says that you have a sense of shame and a sense of audience, and so I think in some ways we see it as someone is honest.
Pause and pace
Chloe: When you were describing the slow breath and the pause, I started to feel calmer just with you describing that. So I think that’s an amazing tip and I think as we’re taking those pauses, does that also put the audience at ease as well, you know and so I’ll create like a positive feedback loop of them feeling calmer because you’re speaking slowly.
Caroline Goyder: So much, and the thing is that you can speak with pace and energy when you speak, it’s just those pauses are always there for you and when an audience are able to breeze with you in a relaxed way. Absolutely, they feel more relaxed too. So if the positive feedback is really real for sure.
Chloe: I want to ask you about confidence, and what’s your definition of confidence.
Caroline Goyder: It’s funny it’s changed. So I think if you don’t ask me that 10 years ago. I might have talked about presence and charisma or and now I just think it’s about someone who’s so kind of centered in themselves and relaxed that they’re open to what’s happening fully, that they’re listening and I think people who I look at are the speakers if people really listen, they’re on stage and they’re really present to the audience. And I think in a world that we’re also distracted, and you know multitasking, I think that that presence and that listening that’s what confidence is for me now. When I see it, I’m like yeah.
What is confident speaking?
Chloe: Love it. In your book, that the Latin for confidence comes from confide and that means to trust and I thought I never heard that before and I think a lot about confidence but that sense of trust for yourself I suppose, trust that… I think in my experience of for example doing podcasts I was really nervous at 1st, probably a dozen podcast I recorded and then you learn to trust yourself because you learned that I can survive the situation, you know the words really come out seen as a poor that doesn’t really matter and so you know I love and thinking about in that way that we can develop that trust for ourselves.
Caroline Goyder: Trust is everything because it makes us kind of go quiet in our heads, doesn’t it? And then you know it’s like Roger Federer or something, it’s like when you look at mastery in any field, they’ve got such a sense of trust in what they do, they can just be really present to what’s happening. And of course we’ve got to be gentle with ourselves because you know you’ve become a master at what you do you know over the years and I’ve done a lot of public speaking, so that you kind of you have to be kind to yourself if you’re learning something new. You know so like I’ve been in the choir recently and I don’t have that trust of myself in the choir but I have a trust that if I keep going, if I keep practicing that trust will come. So it’s be kind to yourself 1st, and allow trust to develop and it will come.
Chloe: Because we have that expectation of needing to be good at stuff straightaway, don’t we? And that just so unrealistic.
Caroline Goyder: All of this takes time. And when I started out doing this like you know I really was the student who didn’t get it 20 years ago, and it is so nice, there’s a benefit to getting older in the sense that you do start to learn the things that you thought you couldn’t do but I do think people have to allow it, maybe not 20 years you know with voice if you practice every day for 2 weeks you will get the horses come they’ll be us. That 21 days things.
Chloe: So the key to getting it is practice, listening to recordings of yourself, little and often.
Singing for confidence
Caroline Goyder: And I mean a simple thing is just if you sing in the morning, people laugh… but if you just put music and you laugh and just sing along, it’s so good for you, it is great for your confidence, it’s great for your mood, and it will also just warm up your voice. So sing, move, breath, meditate, it’s all of this is fantastic for your voice, because it’s all about the breath.
Chloe: Can I ask you about singing because I use to have a big fear of singing and over the last couple of years have been trying to sing more in front of people and I think I have had an unblocks the big fear I had around it, and I wondered what. One thing I don’t think is once you have sang in public, speaking part is not as bad.
Caroline Goyder: Yeah.
Chloe: Once you’ve done sober Karaoke. Speaking in meetings doesn’t seem like such a big deal.
Caroline Goyder: I think there was something in that. I mean I definitely join the choir because I realized that there I was yapping on about speaking with confidence but I was nervous about singing. There is really cool writer called Frankie Armstrong who is a she’s a singing teacher, and she’s blind, so she comes out from a slightly different very auditory point, and her thing is everybody can sing. You know literally there is no one who can’t sing. And some of us are told that we tone deaf or you know all of that stuff at school, it’s just not true.
And I think if all of us just embrace singing like walking, you know it’s just something that we can do, and we don’t think I walk badly, we just walk. And I think for all of us, it’s good just to sing, just enjoy it I’m not saying you have to get up and do sober karaoke, I think that would be a stretch for me. But you know maybe sing in the morning, maybe join a choir, sing with your kids if you have them just be easy about it.
Chloe: This is good for mental health that I know what the statistics are often here about how being in a choir is so good for our minds and connection and community and that sort of things.
Caroline Goyder: We’re also lost in our screens, aren’t we? You know I was just as anybody else and I think the voice singing takes us beyond that little box. It becomes about vibration and there molecules and residence which is already good for us.
Chloe: Talking of phones, I hear a lot from people about phone phobia, it’s something that affects them and I know you wrote about that, can you share what that is, people that maybe don’t know, do you have any advice for people struggling with that?
Caroline Goyder: I may have a degree of Phone phobia I have to say, because there’s something about when we’ve been hiding you know in our little boxes on screen, so I can you know… I can send a whatsapp message or a text, and I don’t give any emotional content right away really when I’m writing, you know you can read in emotional content but it’s hard to know how I was feeling when I wrote that Truly, whereas with the voice if you pick up the phone to someone, because it’s your breath, your voice is your breath, they can hear it immediately what’s happening inside you. And so that’s a wonderful thing, that’s why we should pick up the phone to people we love more, but is also very vulnerable, and so lots of people will say I hate making phone calls, I hate it when people call me. So if you’re someone who feels like that, there’s a…
I learned this from an answer is well actually, she’s died now she’s called [28:51 inaudible], she was wonderful and she said if I have to make a phone call, 1st of all I get myself really comfortable, and I would say if I’m really nervous I stand up, because that just helps your confidence, and she says then I imagine the face of the person that I’m going to talk to, I picture them and it becomes real. Now, I’ve heard people in call centers say they have a photo of someone they love, you know so that you might actually talk to a picture of someone that relaxes you or you might imagine the person for real, but if you can make it feel humanized and I think also to get yourself in control, so stand, pause, get your voice centered, it will start to feel less like you’re being judged and more like you’re in control of it. It’s a funny thing though.
Chloe: I had some advice, don’t answer the phone from an unknown number because it’s just going to waste your time because it’s more than likely to be a thing. So I am understanding it saves time. I know a lot of people who would not answer numbers that are hidden, so that’s really good advice. I love the idea of having a picture of someone you love there and you pretend to be speaking to them.
Listening for smiles
Caroline Goyder: Because they hear that smile, you can hear 6 kinds of smile in a voice which is incredible. I can’t remember where the research was done but if you google 6 guys a smile that research will come up.
Chloe: What are the 6 kind of smile I need to know now, I need to research that.
Caroline Goyder: Because the smile effects the resonance of the voice, so you’re creating a different chamber for sound and we can hear that different resonance. We can also hear when someone is not smiling. So I think that’s the thing is that when you’re on the phone, you know imagine they are in front of you really smile, really engage because they’ll hear it.
Chloe: Good, good tips. Do you ever, is it difficult for you as someone who helps people with this, do you feel like a lot pressure to do things perfectly as a speaker when you’re teaching people to do that?
Caroline Goyder: It’s not funny, I had a book launch last Wednesday, a week ago. And so all these people were coming to celebrate the book launch, and there I was going to have to do 10 minute speech and stand up and talk about speaking with confidence. And so I have to, you know I did do some work on it with someone, because it is something you can’t mess up. So I definitely feel that there is an extra layer of pressure, you know for you there will be around being Calm and managing anxiety. But the way I frame it so myself is that if I’m putting myself under a double pressure, that’s great because I’m helping people who are under pressure and the more I understand what it feels like to be under pressure in that spotlight, the more I can help the person who’s doing the scary speech. So I kind of… I rationalize it for myself like that but yes daunting.
Chloe: I always wonder why people think I’m always calm or never worried about anything and it’s definitely not the case. Ask my boyfriend. And then to think I guess it comes back to that thing of recognizing that it’s such a common thing for human beings to feel. We shouldn’t beat ourselves up about that, and I remember reading about the singer Adele who even though she’s the most Amazing singer in the world potentially, she gets so nervous she sometimes sick before her performances. So if you can be that amazing and still get nervous then you we can all experience that. It’s Ok I think.
Nerves can be a good thing
Caroline Goyder: It’s so Ok. nerves are just as such a good thing. And I think the thing that I really truly believe about speaking is that perfect just doesn’t exist. And yes have a plan, yes be as relaxed as you can but then just embrace the fact that yeah it’s going to be imperfect. Great, it’s more interesting.
Chloe: Yes, definitely. And I realized that I had watched your ted talk years ago when I was probably needing some help in public speaking and I was reading a book and I was like oh, I recognize this and then I watch your ted talk which I recommend everyone watched as well as buying your book. And I love how you kind of address the beginning of the talk, the kind awkward moment in the beginning of the talk, we’re just about to speak and I think this what’s powerful about it is just bringing all that stuff to the surface, and just talking about it and acknowledging it, and it makes it seem so much less threatening to kind of just talk about it. So thank you so much for sharing with that. And it is how something like 7500000 views which is incredible.
Caroline Goyder: Splendid.
Chloe: Amazing. Thank you so much for everything that you shared.
Caroline Goyder: Thank you, I love chatting.
Chloe: And please tell us where people can buy your book and find out more about you and your work?
Caroline Goyder: So the book is on Amazon and all good booksellers, you can find out about my work at Carolinegoyder.com and we’re doing a little offer at the moment where if you buy the book and send us a receipt to infogravitasmeta.com then we will send you a set of audio courses on speaking with confidence.
Chloe: Amazing, and the book is called “find your voice.” Amazing. Thank you so much.
Caroline Goyder: Pleasure thank you.
Outro: Thank you so much for listening, I really hope that you gained a lot from this episode. Come on over to Instagram and let me know what are you taking from this episode, find me at Chloebrotheridge, and I would love it if you would leave me a review in the podcast app or on i-Tune, subscribe to the podcast, leave me a rating.
And is there someone in your life that will benefit from this podcast, you can let them know by sharing this podcast, I’ll be so so grateful. so I’m just wishing you a wonderful week ahead, sending you loads of love, hopefully you’ll tune in again, and I’ll see you soon.