It’s a pleasure to introduce you to Emma Gunavardhana. Emma joins me on the Calmer You podcast. She is an experienced beauty, health and lifestyle writer, presenter and brand consultant and host of the popular The Emma Guns Show.
We chat about:
- Her feel good habits (and the deeper self work she’s doing that makes the biggest difference)
- The story of how she finally got help for her anxiety and depression
- Getting out of victim mode and learning that you CAN change
- Why confidence is not always what it seems
Chloe Brotheridge: Hello and welcome to the Calmer You podcast. This is your host, Chloe Brotheridge. I’m a coach and hypnotherapist and I’m the author of The Anxiety Solution and Brave New Girl. And this podcast is all about helping you to become your calmest, happiest and most confident self.
Thank you so much for listening today. Welcome. Thanks for being here. If you’re joining me here for the first time on the podcast, I am speaking to the very lovely Emma Guns. Famous for the Emma Guns Show, her brilliant podcast.
She’s also a journalist and we actually met several years ago when I was on her podcast. It was when the Anxiety Solution had just come out and I think it was one of the first podcasts I’d ever done.
She was just really lovely and has said some lovely things about my books in the past. It was so nice to get to be the one asking her the questions this time.
We chat about…
I love this conversation. We really get into Emma’s story of her experience of anxiety and depression, what it took for her to finally get help. We talk about how to get out of victim mode. And honestly, this is something that I recognise in myself. Emma talks about this as well, it’s not a very nice thing to admit to but actually it can happen all too often that we can get ourselves into this mindset of being a victim. This doesn’t really serve us and we talk about this and how to get out of it.
We discuss why confidence is not always what it seems. Don’t be fooled people, lots of people that seem very confident, actually peel back the layers and we discover that just as riddled in self-doubt and insecurity as we are and we talk about her feel good habits and also the deeper self-work that she’s been doing, it makes the biggest difference.
So I think you’re gonna love this episode. I really think it’s good to have these honest conversations about mental health where we just realise underneath it all, we’re all the same. We all struggle with things we all doubt ourselves, we all find it hard to ask for help at times. And, you know, it really does help us to feel connected I think within our common humanity when we remind ourselves of these things.
I’ve got some exciting things coming up in the next few weeks. And if you want to get involved, I would encourage you to sign up for my newsletter. I send out a newsletter every week talking about the podcast and sharing freebies and tools, sharing the courses and the events that I have coming up.
I’ve got some exciting announcement announcements coming soon. So I’d love for you to head on over to my website www.calmer-you.com and you can enter your email address there to sign up for my freebies. I’ll give you all the details about the things I’ve got coming up that you can get involved in.
Let’s welcome Emma Guns to the show
Chloe Brotheridge: Hello, Emma, thank you so much for joining me today. How you doing?
Emma G: Hi Chloe, thank you for having me. I am really well.
Chloe Brotheridge: I’m very excited to speak to you as I’ve also been on your podcast. You’re amazing and your podcast is very popular. And I’m very excited to get to be asking the questions this time. Can you just let the people listening know what it is that you do and a little bit about how you got to where you are today.
How Emma got started
Emma G: Yeah, cool. So I’d be delighted to share that. Currently, my main job is that I am a podcast host of the Emma Guns Show. But I guess you could say my journey towards this started when I began my career in journalism nearly 20 years ago. I started out on local newspapers. I really just wanted to be where all the cool people were.
Chloe Brotheridge: Why not? Why not.
Emma G: When I was a kid, I used to watch things like the Big Breakfast, I would always wait as any of you did this. When they did the news, like 10 to the hour, there would be an entertainment section, and they would cover things like the L style awards, or the MTV awards, and I just wanted to reach through the screen and be there. And it felt like journalism was the easiest way to do that without any discernible musical or modelling talent.
I began my career in magazines as a beauty editor. And I was on magazines for 10 years and I’ve been freelance for eight. In that time, I have gone to all those awards. And I have been there and I have had a really interesting and varied career. I’ve written for lots of people and TV presenting.
So it all kind of culminated nearly five years that there’s something else I want to be saying. Magazine articles and YouTube are not really the place where I could say it. I was listening to podcasts and so the Emma Guns Show was really born out of really feeling like I wanted to showcase conversations with people who didn’t really get heard.
Mental health and depression
I was struggling with my mental health and I was depressed and I had anxiety which was undiagnosed at that point. But I kind of very selfishly started the podcast as a way of putting myself in a room with successful people, and trying to get them to share with me how they have overcome hardships, so that I could use those techniques and maybe help myself and the wider audience obviously.
Chloe Brotheridge: Yeah, brilliant, brilliant. And has it had something like 8 million downloads?
Emma G: Nine? Well, yeah, roughly on an estimate, because you know what it’s like with these things. But yeah, I mean, over 7 million downloads, which is incredible. And every time I think about that, I just think, well, that can’t all be me and my family. It has been a really incredible personal and professional journey.
Chloe Brotheridge: We were talking just before we started recording about your experience of life in lockdown, and whether you might be making changes in your life as a result of that. Are there things that you’ve kind of learned through this experience?
Emma G: I felt quite safe within the confines of the lockdown regulations because it was all very clear. And so I found it quite easy to work around that and to adapt my every day and to transfer my work to working from home. And it made me realise that I didn’t have to be constantly out doing things, networking, speaking to people spinning all these plates in order for my professional life to maintain its momentum.
My frame of reference is really only the media and I feel like sometimes it’s about who you know and what you know, in the currency of what industry gossip you might know before other people. It was very nice in lockdown to just focus on research. Guess reaching out to people and saying I’d really like to chat with you on the show. It was much slower, but no less efficient and no less effective. I really enjoyed it.
Life after lockdown
Life has picked up the pace again, and as we are easing out of lockdown, the conversation is about how do I take what I’ve learned from that lockdown experience and implement it moving forward. Not just rush to go back to how things were before just for the sense of normalcy. That’s where I am at the moment. I don’t know if you feel the same way but I’m very much in that place. I know I’m going to go back to certain things but what am I not going to go back to? What don’t I want to invite back into my world?
Chloe Brotheridg: I love that. I love hearing people’s different experiences and interpretations and I’ve had a lot of people with anxiety saying, you know, I’ve been more calm than ever during lockdown because actually, you know, things have slowed down and I haven’t had to go out and be so on all the time. Well, moving to the countryside. I think a lot of people are thinking about if house prices in London are going to go down because no one’s gonna live in London anymore or move into the countryside. So there’s that.
The great pause
Emma G: I can believe it. I can really believe it. I was speaking to a friend the other day, and they referred to it as the great pause. And when can you think where you actually get in history a time where you get to actually just sort of pause and reassess. And I guess it’s how you look at lockdown whether you see it as an inconvenience or you see it as an opportunity. From the very beginning I thought right, okay, this is an opportunity. What am I going to get out of this?
Chloe Brotheridge: I love that you’re just thinking about what do I not want to go back to.
Emma’s experience with depression
You touched on earlier about your own kind of experiences of anxiety and depression and how, you know, for a while it wasn’t diagnosed. Can you share a bit about what was your experience with that? And how did you then sort of get it diagnosed or go and get some help for that? What was your journey with that?
Emma G: I think looking back now, I have been affected by it my whole life, especially anxiety. And I even remember things like going to go and set a school exam at the age of six, and just hiding, being really scared of the headmaster and hiding behind my mother. And those things weren’t necessarily looked out for or identified. That was definitely running underneath the whole time, my whole life, there was always an undercurrent of anxiety. Looking back as well, I think it was also depression.
The lens of depression
When I look back, I can see where it was spiking and when it wasn’t affecting me so much. And I think what essentially happened is, when you are navigating life through the lens of depression or anxiety and your head is in that space, whatever that might look like for the individual, you’re not presenting the best version of yourself. You’re not necessarily enjoying anything that is happening. That was certainly my experience.
I constantly had this state of Red Alert where I thought people were trying to get one up on me or people were talking poorly about me or people just didn’t like me. It was very much almost like a victim mentality, which I dislike intensely about myself.
Getting called out
I’m not sure, working in a competitive media job was necessarily the best soil for me to spend many of my formative years. But essentially what happened was, about five years ago, I went on holiday with a couple of friends. And I was so tightly wound. I was going through a lot personally at the time. Looking back now I definitely ruined that holiday just by being uptight, just by being moody by not really being that engaged.
I was sharing a room with my friend Casey and she said something to me which sort of at the time felt quite cruel, but actually, it was definitely something I needed to hear. She said Emma I’ve never known anyone who just doesn’t have coping mechanisms in the way that you make everything out to be such a big deal to you. It did come from a place of love and she is that kind of a friend and didn’t mean it negatively.
Realising something wasn’t right
But I was crying in bed, sobbing just unable to really function and ruining a perfectly nice holiday. Thank you very much. And that was also the holiday or I remember waking up in the morning going into the bathroom and I didn’t recognise myself in the mirror. I thought something’s definitely not quite right here.
She said, I think you need help. I’d always seen people saying you need help as them trying to brush you off because they didn’t want to deal with you because you were annoying them.
I started seeing a therapist, counsellor and had talking therapy. And there were a mixture of disciplines in there. Sometimes I would be like, Oh, yeah, that was a bit of CBT other times it wasn’t, you know, and that we did that for 18 months. And that was utterly transformative for me. It was really, really incredibly helpful. That’s why now I feel like I’m able to talk about it. It no longer has control over me.
I sometimes feel like people can sometimes take a mental health diagnosis like depression or anxiety and it almost becomes an identity. I was affected by it, it has shaped me. But I don’t want to identify as somebody who has anxiety and depression because I feel like then I’m giving it roots.
It doesn’t have to define you
Having said that, I’m very aware that it takes a lot of work to keep it at bay. But I know the colour and the shape of it and the feel of it. And so if that familiar feeling comes into my mind or even my physicality, I grab my tools.
Chloe Brotheridge: That’s such an interesting point. Don’t let it define you. It might be something that you may experience but it doesn’t have to be for a lifetime. Sometimes when we get caught up in a cycle of depression or anxiety we can feel as though we’re going to be like that forever. And we’re never going to change. Actually, I think part of those issues is that kind of little voice that says, you’re never gonna change, you’re gonna be something like this forever. Knowing that there is a way out and there are things that you can do when you notice it is creeping in.
Moving out of the victim role
It’s also really interesting what you said about the kind of the victim role that we can get ourselves into and about blaming other people or saying why does this always happen to me? We can kind of almost recreate our problems by staying in that mindset and it’s horrible to hear that no one wants to hear that. That kind of staying in that victim mode is kind of you’re perpetuating it, but it can can be a bit like that. And if we can step outside of it and ask for help, you know, having the courage to ask for help. You know, that’s such a big thing in itself sometimes knowing that it’s okay to get help and going down that path is something that we can do for ourselves.
Emma G: It’s a kindness.
You mentioned when you notice feelings kind of creeping in you and that you have tools. What are those things you turn to?
How am I feeling today?
Emma G: I’ve tried to make them quite simple and free. I might ask myself how am I feeling today? I’m not a big fan of the word triggered, but it is appropriate here. But if I’m feeling triggered by something, right, what do I need? Do I need to be around people as a form of distraction? Do I need to bring a good friend or do I need to go meet up with a good friend? You know, lockdown permitting, or do I need to just be a bit quiet and a bit still and read or just go for a walk?
I think we can sometimes get too caught up in knee jerk reactions. And it’s rare that one makes a great decision in a knee jerk reaction. And so I try really hard when I feel like something’s getting at me, sometimes you don’t even know necessarily what it is. I can sit at my desk somedays and think I’m not breathing properly. Or my lower back’s hurting, which for me is like my adrenals are on fire. So then it’s like, right, stand up, have a stretch, what’s on your nerves?
The closer you get to it the smaller it becomes
I had a great guest on the podcast a little while ago called Jeff Thompson. And we had a very long conversation on tape but off tape we were talking about things that trigger you. He gave me a great piece of advice, which is if something gets to you in that way, run at it and confront it. The closer you get to it, the smaller it becomes trust me.
It was a very useful piece of advice because it could be that I know there’s an email that I’ve got to respond to. I don’t really want to because I’m a bit worried about what the person might say in reply. Or it may be that I have a deadline looming, and I’ve been putting it off and it’s a bit tedious. So just put them on my desk and do them straight away and it lifts immediately.
Chloe Brotheridge: That’s such a powerful idea of running towards the things that are triggering you. For people listening, I don’t know how many people sort of understand this idea of triggering but it’s like when something comes up in your life and it kind of taps into something within you that very often will link back to an old wound from the past. The temptation can really be in those moments to sort of blame the other person or say the world is against you. But if we can see that trigger as a sign to look at ourselves and think, right, what is this that needs to be worked through and healed? And as you say, kind of running towards it. That’s how we can. That’s how we can overcome it.
Emma G: I mean, if you think about Twitter, for example, how many times do you see on a social media platform, somebody say, I wish people wouldn’t do x or when someone’s going through x, the worst thing you can say is x. I hate it when people say x. And I just look at that and think, for me, that is a tweet that tells me that you need to learn how to cope with when people say x, not that you need to tell the world via social media that you would prefer it that people stopped doing it. That thing because that’s unlikely to happen. The only thing you can control and potentially change is how you react to it.
We can’t change what other people think
Chloe Brotheridge: I love that. It’s a good reminder to us all. Let’s remember we can’t change other people or what other people think. We can just change ourselves, we can look at ourselves, what’s triggering us? What is it that needs to be worked through within ourselves?
Emma G: Yeah, and sometimes that can be uncomfortable and sometimes that can get a bit messy, but ultimately, it will lead to for you. I think for the individual, it will lead to a place that is calmer, kinder and quieter and less triggered.
Chloe Brotheridge: You went and had 18 months of therapy. How about other things that you tried. I know that you’ve got a series on your podcast all about feel-good habits.
Emma G: They were brilliant. They were so so good. I’ve talked about insomnia on my podcast, I’m sure you’ve covered it too. And I think somebody can say to you, oh, there’s a great pillow spray. I just sort of think, okay, a pillow spray might work. But actually, what you need for a pillow spray to work is to have your sleep hygiene. So maybe that’s a routine maybe that’s not using your device for an hour before you go to bed. There’s lots of little things in place. So I feel the same about mental health.
I feel that therapy is one thing, it’s a really solid foundation upon which you can build. And so within that, I was meditating for a while. Exercising is really helpful for me. Reading is really helpful. I do breathwork. All of these little things that sit on a very solid foundation of having actually confronted a lot of the big stuff with a mental health professional. That when it comes time for a feel good habit, it can be something, it can be something like, I don’t know, just listening to a beautiful song or just slowing down or doing a bit of that breathwork.
Feel good habits
I used to look very much for external validation for people to tell me, you’re doing okay. In actual fact, if I’m really honest, it took an external opinion for me to actually address my own mental health issues. Rather than me saying, I need help. It took somebody else to say it for me. And so one of the things I try to do as a feel-good habit is to ask what do you need right now? What can you do for you right now that will make you feel good?
Sometimes it’s listening to One Direction. Other times, it’s lying on an acupressure mat. Another time it might be honestly just zoning out in a book. I try to ask myself, What do you need? Do you need to go into London and be amongst things, be with a load of your friends who you literally can’t keep up with? Or do you need the polar opposite? And then try to plot my path towards that thing?
Chloe Brotheridge: That’s such a good question for people to be asking themselves, you know, when maybe on a daily basis, you know, asking yourself what is it you need that day
The essence of therapy
That’s such a good question. I think the best way I can describe therapy and I’d be really interested to get your thoughts on this as well is imagine that every time a thought or a feeling enters the brain, and like a machine spits out a ticket or a piece of paper like a printer.
I felt as though my entire life these tickets and bits of paper and spitting out of this machine, and just flying all over the place. And what therapy did is it was like going in with an organiser and we sorted out the papers. We put them into bundles. We put some in folders, we put some in the bin. Shredded some of the stuff. We ranked them in order of importance and we organise them in a way where they were linear and I could understand them.
Now it’s not a room full of random bits of paper that have just been splashed everywhere. It’s a really nicely organised library of thoughts and feelings that I feel like I understand. That’s what I feel that therapy does.
Organising our thoughts
When anything else happens, you can very quickly go to your internal Dewey Decimal System and find what you need in order to handle that particular thing that might be happening to you at that moment. I envy anybody who was able to just live their life and be able to do that naturally. I do feel as though that kind of process is something you need someone to hold your hand whether it is a hypnotherapist or therapist. Everybody’s going to be drawn to somebody different. That’s ultimately what it was able to help me to organise my thoughts, but also help me understand who I am.
Chloe Brotheridge: I love that analogy of just tidying and organising. It’s such a silly idea to have in society that we’re supposed to just be able to sort ourselves out and do it on our own when the human mind is the most complicated thing in the universe. Yet, we’re supposed to be able to just handle it and deal with this mystery that is life on our own. And of course, I think most of us are going to need help with that at some point or another.
I have a friend who just compartmentalizes things. She’s probably the only person I know that doesn’t need therapy.
Emma G: I’ve definitely always been attracted to friends who seem like they’ve got it sorted.
Chloe Brotheridge: It sounds like for you, it’s kind of organising and processing things, making sense of it, getting to know yourself. I mean, there’s so many things that can come out with therapy. It’s probably different for everyone. For me, a big part of it was getting rid of the shame. And I had things that were not even that bad. I just thought if I said it out loud, I would die or if someone knew what I was really feeling, they would be just horrified and honestly, there’s nothing that bad. At the time it really felt like that. I just needed someone to say, Chloe, you’re actually normal. You’re okay. I think that was massive for me. So we’re basically just telling everyone to go to therapy, I think.
Emma G: Yeah, I mean, you wouldn’t think twice about going to a diet club if you wanted to lose weight, or you wouldn’t think twice about going to a personal trainer. If you wanted to build muscle or burn fat. You wouldn’t think about all of the people that we outsource stuff to and yet where we’re still in the shame mindset about outsourcing our mental health. The brain is an incredibly complicated organ. Hmm.
Chloe Brotheridge: I wanted to ask you as well about confidence. From what you do, you kind of need to have quite a lot of confidence. How did that get happen throughout your experiences with anxiety? And are there other things that you’ve kind of learned about confidence, you know, through what you do?
Emma G: It’s such an interesting question. I remember saying to somebody a little while ago, I am riddled with insecurity, even now, and yet, that’s not how I appear. There is a massive disconnect between how people see me and how I see myself. So if I walk into a room and I give a presentation, or I host an event, you can bet that I am absolutely wracked and riddled with nerves. But something allows me to do it. And I just assume it’s adrenaline.
Nerves can support us
I used to do live TV. Those nerves really get you through it. I remember somebody saying to me if you don’t have nerves, you shouldn’t be doing this because they’re what make people come alive on air. And so with confidence, I think, I honestly think I felt so overlooked as a kid because I went to a school where you had to be either intellectually very bright or sporty, but preferably both, and I was neither. So I was loud in order to get noticed and then just became incredibly annoying. And so, my confidence has always been phantom confidence.
Confidence on the outside vs inside
Chloe Brotheridge: It’s amazing how many people will say the same. In fact, almost everyone that you speak to, you know, when you get below the surface there are these insecurities and nerves and self-doubt and the inner critic . Maybe that’s just normal, a normal part of being human rather than thing we are not enough. Actually, maybe it’s just normal when you’re putting yourself out there to feel that extra kind of energy or to when you’re expanding and growing to have this sense of self-doubt because you’re doing something new or you’re doing something that’s expansive for you. We can be confident on the outside actually say, you know what, I sometimes struggle with this as well.
Mimicry and confidence
Emma G: I went to an all-girls school growing up and there would be these girls and I’d think if I could just be like them, I’d be super competent and pretty and everyone would like me. So I think a lot of that comes out of mimicry.
Chloe Brotheridge: I wanted to ask you about one of the videos that you did on your IGTV recently where you’re sharing about the breast reduction surgery that you had. What you were sharing was so relatable. Obviously, a lot of people wouldn’t have had that specific surgery, but I think so many of us can relate to what you were sharing. Could you share a bit about that?
Emma G: Of course, yeah. So, this time last year, I had breast reduction surgery. And it very much was a surgery. I just want to say that I had a great surgeon. I was a really good candidate for it because I had disproportionately large heavy cumbersome boobs, and I didn’t want to have those anymore. But in and amongst my depression, anxiety, I would say that food had become a comfort and therefore had become somewhat toxic in my life. Someone said to me years ago, that basically what you eat in private, you were in public. That was quite a shock. It really sort of hit home.
I know that the topic of weight can be very triggering for people and I’m certainly not casting any judgement. But for me personally, I felt very uncomfortable in my skin because I knew that the excess weight I was carrying, and have done for most of my life was as a result of a self-sabotaging behaviour. Relying on food for more than just sustenance and staying alive. I was relying on it for comfort.
There was no limit of greediness. I had a lot of shame about that. Always dressing in camouflage myself to hide. And if I had my picture taken, I would honestly scream from the neck up at people because I just was so embarrassed.
I’m 42 and this has gone on for years, and I just didn’t want to continue living like that. And when I had the breast reduction, I genuinely thought that would change my body and that suddenly I would look the way I wanted to look. It was a massive anticlimax and an incredible wake up call.
Mental health is an inside job
Because doing something that drastic and again, I don’t regret it. It was a great surgery. I’m very happy with the results. But it was a real wake up call about mental health. This is an inside job. If you want to fix this, you have to run towards it and address it head-on.
I mentioned in the video called Brain over Binge by Katherine Hansen. It allowed me to see my relationship and my behaviour around food from a distance. And it was like a software update. I read it in a day and woke up the next morning, and since then my relationship with food has been completely different. Not perfect. There are still days when I have to think, you know, the family pack of crisps needs to last you a weekend. Don’t go and get another bag. I can see it for what it is. Whereas before I didn’t, and I would have given in to all of those impulses. It was overeating essentially.
Chloe Brotheridge: I really took from your story that no matter what we do on the outside it isn’t as effective as what we do on the inside.
Emma G: I assumed that people who were smaller than me were living a better life than I was. So I’d imprisoned myself within this mental and physical prison of Yeah, you can’t live your best life because you’re not worthy. There was a lot of attacking coming from within. That was a huge amount of self-sabotage.
What was brilliant about the surgery was that is was a wake up call. It was not cheap. There was six weeks of recovery. It’s obviously general anaesthetic. It’s a major procedure. It threw the situation into clarity. That was then I was able to move forward and address it, which was really helpful. I’m very grateful for it for that reason.
Inside work is a lifetime job
Chloe Brotheridge: Yeah, definitely. And, yeah, just wanted to say I just noticed something that I was saying. That I’m almost making it sound like you can just heal yourself. But it is such a process of continuing to be really kind to yourself, learning about yourself, becoming aware of your triggers. It’s a lifetime job. I didn’t want to make it seem like it was like, super easy.
It’s a life’s work
Emma G: It’s a life’s work. But I think when you do, I mean, I certainly am not a completed project. And I would never say that I am. But I think once you start addressing the internal stuff, and once you start to get to know yourself, you do feel the difference and life does feel better for it. So I know what you’re saying. But I do think your point is completely valid.
Change is possible
Chloe Brotheridge: Change is possible that’s quite motivating. Know that it is possible to change.
Emma G: Yeah, we’re very, we’re very malleable. We’re not concrete we can be moulded. And so, you know, if you are currently, as I was, like really emotional and not able to cope with anything, that can be changed. And those coping mechanisms are within your grasp.
Chloe Brotheridge: I want people to write that down on a post it and just have it on the mirror.
How you can stay in touch with Emma
Chloe Brotheridge: I’m just looking at the time. I don’t want to keep you too long. Where can people find out more about you and what you’re up to?
Emma G: Emma Guns Show is available on all good podcast platforms, probably not too far away from Chloe’s podcast. My surname was too long for Instagram so I’m at Emma Guns. There’s a great Facebook forum for listeners of the show, but Instagram is probably where you see the most of me.
The podcast saved my life and I sort of half joke because as I said earlier, when I was in a really bad way, I was able to surround myself with really positive inspiring people. I don’t think I don’t think it’s any mistake or accident that the the way I am now is a combination of those conversations, as well as my own therapy and other things that I’ve done. The Emma Guns show is on Apple and Spotify, wherever you get your podcast.
Chloe Brotheridge: Head on over. I’ll put the links in the in the show notes for everyone as well. Thank you, Emma, thank you so much for speaking to me. I’ve loved everything you said. And I hope people will get a lot from it. And yeah, thank you so much.
Emma G: Always a pleasure to speak to you Chloe, thank you so much. Your podcast is fab, so it’s such an honour.
Chloe Brotheridge: You have been listening to the Calmer You podcast with me, Chloe Brotheridge. Don’t forget you can download loads of freebies for anxiety and confidence at my website, Calmer-you.com. You can also find out about my app and my one on one sessions. Please do Subscribe to this podcast in the apple podcast app. And if you have enjoyed it or found it helpful, please leave me a review. It makes a massive difference to helping the podcast get discovered by other people.
Come on over and find me on Instagram. I’m hanging out there every day you can find me at Chloe Brotheridge. Let me know what you thought of this episode. And please share it with anyone who might need to hear this today. So I’m sending you lots of love and I hope you have a brilliant week ahead.