Today on the Calmer You Podcast I’m speaking with Pandora Sykes about FOMOG, failure and doing it right. Pandora is a journalist, writer and podcaster of The High Low. She has just released a new book that I read and highly recommend, How Do We Know We are Doing it Right
We chat about:
- How do we know we’re doing it right?
- FOMOG and the need to be productive all the time
- Is self-care still valid or is it another industry profiting from our misery!
- Why so many of us feel like a failure
Chloe Brotheridge: Hello and welcome to the Calmer You podcast. This is your host, Chloe Brotheridge. I’m a coach and hypnotherapist and I’m the author of The Anxiety Solution and Brave New Girl. This podcast is all about helping you to become your calmest happiest and most confident self.
Hello, and welcome to this episode. Thank you so much for listening today. I get to speak to Pandora Sykes today who is journalist, a writer, and a podcaster.
You have probably heard of her from the incredibly wonderful and successful podcast, The High Low and she also has a new series, which is supporting her new book. The podcast series is called Doing It Right. At the time of recording, it was actually at the top of the podcast chart. I feel very privileged and lucky to get to speak to her.
How do we know we are doing it right?
Her book is called How Do We Know We’re Doing It Right and I absolutely loved it. It’s such a good read. I’m so impressed by Pandora’s scope of knowledge and understanding and ability to tie ideas together. I think you’re gonna love it. We talk about the idea of how do we know we’re doing it right? We talk about FOMO. And we talk about the need to be productive all the time. We get into the topic of self care, and whether it really works? Or is it actually just another industry that is profiting from our misery? We also talk about why so many of us feel like a failure.
Anxiety Solution App
Before we get into the episode, I just want to tell you about my app, the Anxiety Solution App, have you checked it out? yet? The reviews are, frankly, amazing. We’ve been really blown away by the response that we’ve had to this app and how much it’s helping people.
Here’s a review from Veronica. She says, I started using this app just over a week ago. I was spending hours scrolling Instagram feeling unmotivated, unproductive, exhausted, and feelings that I’m not good enough at work. My friend group is drinking too much coffee and generally unwell. I started using the Anxiety Solution out of curiosity. I really liked Chloe’s podcast Carma You and follow her on Instagram. The app really works. Only a couple of days in I can see tangible results. I feel energetic motivated, hardly go on any social media, don’t scroll at all. And generally, I’m feeling great, best money spent. Now I paid for a year subscription to change my daily routine and look forward to the day ahead. So thank you so much, Veronica for that review.
Firstly, you can check out the anxiety solution app, you’ll find the link on my website, Calmer-you.com. You can find it in the app store as well. And there’s a free trial so you can try it out and see if you like it. So please do check that out.
Let’s welcome Pandora
Let’s get into the episode with Pandora Sykes. So welcome Pandora. Thank you so much for joining me today. How are you today? How are you doing?
Pandora: I’m really good. Thank you so much for having me on.
Chloe Brotheridge: How are you handling everything in terms of lockdown?
Pandora: I’m used to spending loads of time at home because I work at home, and I’ve got young kids. I’m really lucky home is my safe place, not just physically but mentally as well. There hasn’t been an enormous change in terms of how I would spend the bulk of my time. It’s just been very surreal because even if you spend a lot of time in your home, you still know that everyone else is out and about. And it’s not weird that I’m in my home for me. It’s weird that everyone else is in their homes as well.
I’ve been so fortunate during the lockdown. Me and my husband are still working and our children are healthy. So I mean, you know, what more could you ask for right now to be honest?
Chloe Brotheridge: Yeah, definitely. I wonder if when you write books, it’s quite good training for this sort of situation. Are writers are made for a lockdown?
Pandora: Yeah, I was on a very tight deadline as well. So I was just at my desk for like, 12 hour days for two months, pretty much and then I had a baby in December. I’m well trained for it. Yeah.
Chloe Brotheridge: Congratulations on your new book, How Do We Know We’re Doing It Right. It’s absolutely brilliant. Really funny, incredibly relatable. Can you share a bit about what it is about?
Pandora: It’s a pretty long title. It basically started from a bunch of essays that I wanted to write about modern life. At the beginning, I didn’t really think there was any overarching theme between them. Then as soon as I started kind of holding the ideas, together with one another, it became quite apparent that there were certain things that were really coming through that really interested me.
Too much choice?
This idea of choice being a bind as much as a blessing that in a culture of endless choice, you don’t necessarily always feel liberated you sometimes feel addled. And I don’t mean in terms of like basic fundamental freedoms, you know, everyone needs a level of societal choice and to not have that is important, but above that above the necessary choice. There are lots of ridiculously small choices that now exist. I think we’ve just been flooded.
The age of overload
We’ve been flooded with online stores, books, home apps and information, a torrent of information, you know, the age of overload. We’ve been flooded with everyone else’s opinions all the time. You know, we’re sort of drowning in it in a sea of other people’s opinions. So I suppose that was what kind of brought me to that at the beginning was the Paradox of Choice. Then I wanted to look at things some serious some more silly that I thought there was a larger story.
I find my phone incredibly anxiety making and have a phobia of being with my phone. So then I wanted to learn more about what that says about the way we communicate. And like most of the things that I was looking at in the book, it turns out that that’s not a new thing. We’ve always been one step behind communication. It’s never quite serving as cognitively it’s always pushing us a little bit further.
I was very keen to write about these things. Not just about the problems that millennial women have. But ultimately, look at the fact that all of these issues are generational. It’s the responsibility of each generation to sift through them and to look at what serves us and what doesn’t.
The need to be productive
Chloe Brotheridge: It’s fascinating because it summarises all these complexities that we’re dealing with. So many people will be dealing with these complicated things in life and just to have them kind of, have it sort of spoken and talked about is really powerful.
You talk a lot about burnout and the pressure to always be busy. This need to be productive. I that part of modern life, and anxiety-provoking in itself? It’s like, of course, we’re feeling anxious because of all these things that are going on.
There is always a trade-off
Pandora: I think quite possibly, yeah. We’re at a real kind of crunch point in terms of something that I find really interesting. And probably is a bit similar to how this idea that choices not only good is this idea that progress is only good. But in order to gain certain things, we have to lose other things. And I think we’ve forgotten that there’s always that trade-off in life. That we just expect things to get better and quicker and cheaper and seamless and shiny, including ourselves without realising there’s a price to pay.
I’m so pleased to hear you say that it made you feel less alone because that that was something I really wanted to try and get to the heart of. Not to try and be relatable to everyone because I don’t think anything can be relatable to everyone, but definitely to bring together lots of strands that might be making people feel alone and to kind of find that commonality.
But yes, I mean, we know that more people are feeling anxious than ever. 264 million people worldwide suffer from an anxiety disorder. And I have intense periods of anxiety, myself with burnout. That one, maybe it will be controversial. But I wanted to slightly dig a little bit deeper because I felt like we were talking about burnout a lot quite, quite casually.
It’s not the same as being really tired or really stressed. It’s a kind of combination of being very stressed and very overworked and feeling without purpose. So believing that the work you do holds no value. And that’s when I personally realised that I didn’t have burnout because I never got to the point where I thought that the job I did had no purpose and that I had no value. I was very tired, and I was very stressed. But I didn’t lose purpose.
I wanted to really sort of disentangle these particular types of stress, because I do worry that the conversations we have become very flattening, you know, to talk about every sort of work stressors, burnout, or to talk about every concern or moment of self-awareness or self-doubt, as anxiety.
Chloe Brotheridge: Burnout can mean so many different things, because when I think of burnout I think of Adrenal Fatigue. Where someone can get out of bed in the morning and there are two people not be able to get out of bed for, you know, several years because they’re so burned out. So yeah, it’s good to have different kinds of distinctions and what that is. There are lots of books about burnout coming out in the next year or so. It’s definitely something on people’s radars more and more.
There is a difference
Pandora: Helen Peterson who wrote the piece for BuzzFeed about burnout that kind of started this conversation. I think she’s got one coming out. So that will be there. We need to be careful about term suffering from overextension. And I’ve worried sometimes as well that we’ve seen that happen with depression. So people who don’t suffer from depression will say, Oh, I’m so depressed today, rather than I’m so sad. And I worry that with words like depression, anxiety and burnout, that we’ll rid them of their meaning and of their impact. That’s not to dismiss the people that do have anxiety or do have burnout or do have depression. But when we chuck these words around so much, they become a bit like the boy who cried wolf. We’re going to miss the instances where we really need to be paying attention.
Chloe Brotheridge: Yeah, that’s so true. That definitely happens with anxiety. I hear from a lot of people saying anxieties become fashionable or something which I don’t think is very helpful.
Don’t confuse when we really need to pay attention
Pandora: I think that’s really dangerous, because that has seen some people not seek help, because they’ve been told by the sort of current dialogue that everyone’s anxious and it’s normal. And that’s, you know, let people get into states, I think, where they have just assumed that everyone feels like this because they’re being told that everyone does.
Chloe Brotheridge: That can be dangerous, I think. Yeah, I guess it just comes down to what we caught up and do as human beings try and make things all or nothing or kind of generalise or put people into boxes and labels next to life.
Pandora: I can see why that happens. It’s much easier to talk about things or to understand things when they’re categorizable. I mean, I wrote a whole essay about how kind of womanhood has been divided into categorizable sort of flippable role acts of pop culture stereotypes. We were not going to get anywhere as long as we try and do that. It has a really damaging impact on the people who are categorised as well.
Is wellness unwell?
Chloe Brotheridge: I really wanted to talk to you about the concept of wellness. Your book starts off talking about wellness. And I have to say, I think I might be one of those people that would fit in quite well with the crystals.
From the way you describe it in the book, it makes a lot of sense to me. Almost seems like wellness is actually quite unwell. What is that your take on it?
Wellness as industry
Pandora: I think where I was really keen to try and draw distinctions is I don’t want anyone to feel ashamed. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with believing in the kind of various tenants of wellness. Where I think wellness is dangerous as an industry. It quite literally exists and trades off insecurity. And it is doing a lot of rebranding of ancient things like diet culture. The idea that a woman has to present a certain way she has to be whole and pure and clean.
These things are historic. They’re not anything new. Some people who get very invested in wellness aren’t well because I think it can turn into orthorexia, which is obviously an obsession with healthy eating, or it can psychologically become quite controlling.
Wellness is a class issue
The other issue I already have with wellness is that it’s a class issue. It’s an economic issue because a lot of the things that are extolled as the benefits of wellness are really expensive. This means and I quote a writer called Amanda Moll, the wealthiest among us are the ones that have access to wellness. And so in that sense, there isn’t anything inherently wrong with wellness. But when it’s used as a way to somehow improve the lives of society at large, then No, I don’t think it’s appropriate at all. I don’t see how it can address systemic social issues.
Wellness is not going to save obesity for example, because obesity is much more of a multifactorial social issue. It’s got much more in common with poverty than it does with turmeric lattes. How do you say the word I still don’t even know if it’s tumeric or turmeric which is American?
Chloe Brotheridge: Yeah, I think there is that sense that if we buy a crystal or do a gong bath somehow our problems will magically go away. I suppose if you’re saying that to to a working mom who’s got kids, has two jobs and you suggest take a bath and that’s not going to be accessible for her and yeah, I think there needs to be a wider discussion about what that is.
Self-care vs self-respect
Pandora: I think self-care is a brilliant thing when you are doing small things to make you feel sane. I think when self-care becomes a sort of distraction or an indulgence that allows us to avoid more serious conversations or to consider other people. This whole sort of invocation of I’m doing it for my self-care. That’s great, but what’s the self-care of the rest of society like and that’s why I kind of fell in love a bit with something Joan Didion said. She wrote that what we actually need is self-respect. And that, to me is a much more rounded and wholehearted way to look at how we look after ourselves.
That we have respect for our minds and our bodies, and also the minds and bodies of other people. Rather than it just being something that turns inward. I think it has to be something that we turn outward.
Chloe Brotheridge: Yeah, I think so many of our problems are kind of societal issues. It can’t be fixed by having a bath in some Epsom salts. What does self-respect mean to you?
What does self-respect mean
Pandora: I’m still working on it. But I think it’s a combination of a few different things. I think it’s being in tune with yourself. What you need but also what you can give. And I think it’s operating from a place of conviction and quiet confidence and contentment. I don’t think we should be striving for a fully optimised life or a technicolour instagrammable perfect, seamless friction-free life. I think we should be aiming for contentment, and calm and conviction and self-respect.
Those are hard things to attain at the moment because I think it’s very difficult to have total conviction in yourself when we are exposed through a torrent of information through social media to what everyone else thinks all the time. So even if you don’t realise that you are subconsciously absorbing what everyone else thinks, what everyone else is doing 24/seven. And so then it becomes very hard, I think, to have conviction and go to have self-respect.
Chloe Brotheridge: Yeah, that idea of self-optimization and the huge amount of pressure we are putting on ourselves. One quote I really liked from the book was, we think that having a bad day is our failure to harness something.
Being good enough
Pandora: It’s something I’ve seen in others and I see in myself. I have to remind myself all the time that there doesn’t always have to be like a visible product for how I spend my time. And not everything has to be. I mean, kind of a mantra that I repeat throughout the book, which comes from Derek Winnicott is this idea of the good enough that something I think, probably we’d all be a lot happier if we just tried to be good enough at something rather than the best.
I’m real perfectionist and pretty hectic. I move quite frantically through through life. So it’s a real reminder to me to not try and optimise everything. Don’t try and make Something the best it can be. I mean, that’s not to say I think that you should kind of half-assed it. But I think maybe sometimes a bit more half-assing would would be good for us.
Chloe Brotheridge: What I hear from a lot of people is that they won’t give things a try because they think they have to be perfect or because it’s difficult to. At first, we kind of have this sense that we need to be somehow good at dancing before we go to a dance class or something like that.
There is a process
Pandora: I think that’s because the stakes are much higher, though. We don’t really see much in the way of process we just see the finished result. And, and I think that’s okay, I don’t think we should have to see the making of everything in order to know that hard work has gone into it. But that also means that I think people have become obsessed with the processes of others, you know, well, how are they doing that in order to make that work?
Perhaps if I can do that, then I can make that work. And also trying something new becomes so much scarier because everything is now preserved on the internet, you know, we are seeing a vast amount of kind of cancellations happening at the moment or attempted cancellations. I’m not even sure if I totally believe in canceled culture a lot of the time. But certainly like the idea of the takedown is very seductive. At the moment, you know that every single day on Twitter, I see that someone else has been taken down or bids to cancel someone else.
So I think even if you know you don’t have a platform online, you’re still existing within a space where trying new things is really risky. And failure is something that will be preserved will have posterity. Which is a real shame because failures are really important. You know, look, I mean, Elizabeth day’s brilliant podcast how to fail failures. As important as successes.
Chloe Brotheridge: I’m really curious about your take on cancel culture. And when you say you’re not sure what had happened, whether you’re not sure it exists or something, can you share a bit more about that?
Does it last?
Pandora: I think it I think it exists anecdotally. So I think people trying to cancel someone is real. And I think what that feels like is devastating. You know, I use the example of Taylor Swift in the book because there was a lot of, you know, hashtags calling to cancel Taylor Swift or Taylor Swift is over party and that that lasted a good year or two after she had this very public Fallout with Kim Kardashian and Kanye West.
But it wasn’t enforced economically, or physically. Taylor Swift was still allowed to exist within a public and private space. She didn’t have her friends or family taken away from her. And didn’t have her career taken away from her. She still brought out an album.
I think we need to be quite careful with cancel culture in that it’s very rarely something that actually affects the way that we move through the world. And I’m sure the effects of it are devastating. I would be devastated to be cancelled. But the only kind of real examples of full cancellation, I think we’ve seen are with people like Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby. And that’s because they’re criminals and cancel culture should exist in that.
How can there be progress?
I think it’s something we do more in rhetoric, and I don’t agree with it. It’s incredibly flattening and binary. And if we just cancel everyone we don’t agree with then no progress can be made, and no one will be left. I interviewed Alain de Botton recently for my new podcast Doing it Right. And he said that he can see the possibility that one day we’ll just have an island where everyone who is being cancelled can just go. And I think that’s preferable. Maybe that’s better than this absolutely mad scenario we see happening online now.
Chloe Brotheridge: I think disengagement is a good thing. Whether or not you’re being cancelled. I’d leave Twitter anyway. It’s turning into quite a savage place. One thing I really wanted to ask you about was foam.org. Funding mark. Can you say what that is? But we’ve heard a FOMO but FOMO?
Pandora: I didn’t come up with FOMOG. I think I got it from So I wrote a piece for Sunday Times style pocket two years ago. I’ve come across this acronym that I think had been created around a conversation that a young model called Loni Anderson was having, where she was in her early 20s.
What’s wrong with #goals
She said that she felt like she was missing out on her goals, that she had these very ambitious goals for herself by the age of 25. And so this acronym kind of was created, which was FOMOG fear of missing out on goals. I sort of used that acronym to interrogate certain feelings I had been having about success or accomplishment in the wake of having my daughter.
We’ve seen with this sort of dreadful #goals,. When I was growing up goals was just something that like UCAS advisors talked about. It wasn’t this kind of cultural collective aspiration that we saw become something really on social media.
Tick box theory
I think that goals can be quite damaging when we just look at them as the finished product. It’s what I was saying, really about forgetting that things have process, but also that, as Shakespeare says, you know, Joy is in the doing goals makes us look at just the end goal. It’s we don’t take any pleasure or fulfilment in the journey. I was falling foul of something that I called tick box theory. Where a goal or an achievement was just something to tick rather than the process of getting there being something as important as the as the end result.
Chloe Brotheridge: Yeah, I imagine it’s something that’s quite personal right now and that a lot of goals that people might have had, whether that ginding a partner or getting married or having kids or going on holiday or doing certain things have just all been postponed because of lockdown. And I think a lot of people might be resonating that they feel like they’re missing out on achieving the things they wanted to achieve or, you know,
It shouldn’t be about the tick box
Pandora: Ambitions are really important. Hope is really important. But I think we have to look at why we’re wanting to achieve what we want to achieve. And be careful but it’s not just in order to tick it off. There’s something a bit more holistic in it than that. And we’re not jumping straight to the end point always and then wondering why we don’t feel fabulous. It’s just, I mean, like most things in modern life, I think it’s just about slowing down and checking in having like checkpoints along that journey.
Chloe Brotheridge: Yeah, slowing down, not not taking things off a list not doing things for the sake of them. Enjoying the journey a bit more. Yeah,
Another another thing you mentioned in the book was the cognitive load that women will quite often take on board. We juggle so much that tend to fall on the women shoulders, can you can you explain a bit more about that?
Work in the home
Pandora: I wanted to really look at the concept of work as a whole. So not just work in the economic sense, but the work of the home as well. And that can become quite political when you consider that most of the work of the home is still done by women. So even though the gap between working mothers and working fathers is closer than it’s ever been 75% of women currently work versus 91% of men.
The gap in terms of the work of the home is still quite large. Women do on average, 70 minutes more a day. Now as the mother to young children, I looked at that mostly through the lens of being a parent, but I think it exists whether or not you do have children. Obviously children add a large part of the load but there is still the cognitive load. The executive functioning as one psychologists call it a household.
I wanted to look at how that kind of broke down through the term emotional labour, which has been kind of misunderstood and also become an umbrella term for quite a few different things. So I think that there are three categories to how to work the homebrew side. There’s the physical work. Ffor example, in my marriage, we have a 50/50 physical breakdown of childcare. Then there’s the allostatic load, which is the wear and tear and the stress on the body. And then there’s the cognitive work.
Why was I feeling mentally more frazzled?
I came across some really interesting research by a Canadian psychologist called Darby Saxby about the cognitive work and the allostatic load and I found that really freeing and enlightening for me because I was confused that we were doing 50 things 50 of the physical work So why was I feeling physically way more stressed? Why was I feeling mentally more frazzled?
And she said, it might be that at the end of the day, you’re still thinking about, well, do the children need more new school shoes? When have I put into the diary, a date with our parents? What about the present for my daughter’s stocking? I was doing all of that. And from talking to a lot of other people, it seemed like that was still a gendered thing. Now, that’s absolutely not to criticise my husband because the thing is, is I take that on voluntarily.
Sharing cognitive load
Neuroscientist, Pat Levitt, said which I think about all the time where he said, women have bought into the idea that they are better at it. And that’s the thing. It’s not that women are better. It’s not like we’re born being better at that. We are socialised to think that we are and so it becomes easier to do it rather than to not. This was just something that I looked at through quite a personal lens. But what I do now is instead of remembering everything, I give some of the cognitive load to my husband.
So I say, Oh, we’ve run out of lightbulbs, could you get some more? Or we need to buy something for the children could you sort that. It frees up space in your brain because there’s only so many things you’ve got space for in your brain. And if your brain is totally full, with the executive functioning of a household, you haven’t got room for anything else, like things that feel good or that might teach you something
Chloe Brotheridge: That’s a good strategy to try. I find that sometimes it’s easier for me to do it than have to ask my boyfriend five times to do something.
Gender roles have changed while gender patterns have not
Pandora: It’s easiest short term. But is it easier? Or rather is it healthier? Long term? Because then you get into patterns? Yeah. Which is very much something I see in my parents. My parents have very traditional gender roles. But I think I think it was something that I wanted to sort of think about because we are two full time working parents. So it no longer makes sense. I mean, I don’t think even if you’re a stay at home mom, you should do all the executive planning of a household. I mean, you’re already doing the work of full-time childcare, which that is work. It might not be paid work, probably should be but it’s still work.
Doing it Right Podcast
Chloe Brotheridge: No one should take on all of the wear and tear or the or the thinking. Such an interesting topic. Can you say a bit about your podcast. I saw that it is riding high on the charts standing on the shoulders of Louis Theroux currently. So massive congratulations about that.
Pandora: I mean, a pleasure to be on the shoulders of Louis. If only it was in real life, not just in the charts. That would be very exciting. And, yeah, so I decided to do a solo podcast series, When we realised we wouldn’t be able to do a book tour. And I just really wanted the opportunity to have conversations with people. It was primarily a communication tool to look at, quite loosely.
Themes and myths around modern life
It’s not like I’ve taken a chapter and then done a podcast episode on it, but just to look at some of the themes and myths around modern Life. So it’s an eight part interview series. My first one went out yesterday, Monday, the sixth of July with Joe Lycett. And it’s a mix of experts in their field. I suppose celebrities, but the celebrities are also experts in their fields like Joe Lai, citizen, expert comedian in his comedy field. And it looks at what I am most interested in, which is the little things and the big things, you know, the trivial things and the serious things because life is made up of both. And it was just an opportunity really, for me to interview some of the people that I admire the most or have learned the most from.
Ask lots of questions
Pandora: It’s called Doing it Right. And yes, the subtext is there is no way to do it right. There are many ways to do things. There is no answer.
I just asked lots of questions, whether it’s in the book or in the podcast, I want to encourage us to ask questions about our lives, rather than always trying to answer them.
There are no right or wrong answers
Chloe Brotheridge: That’s such a reassuring message. And definitely something I took away from your book. We have this tendency to think of things as binary, it’s either right or wrong, it’s perfect or it’s a disaster. Actually, the truth is, it’s complicated. Everyone’s struggling with something and that’s okay.
Pandora: That’s okay. And also we have to have the competence to sit on the fence a bit. I think. What we’re seeing now is that it’s kind of gone out of fashion to be equivocal, and that is really dangerous. I mean, I see it now even doing the High Low.
You know, people asked me to have conclusive views on things that I don’t have conclusive views on and I feel pushed to have a conclusive view. I don’t want to. I don’t have opinions on everything. I’m still learning about so many things. And if we come out and stay in opinion early on in that process, then we don’t bother to go away and do more learning.
We don’t have to be so sure
Chloe Brotheridge: It can be quite dangerous. I think what we’re seeing now with all the conspiracies and anti-vaxxers and people putting their stake in the sand, is that another analogy. And then once you’ve once you’ve formed really decisive opinions it may be difficult to go back on it when you have new information. So maybe let’s be quite careful.
Pandora: A lot of those opinions are made within our particular context. So like, anti-vaxxers, that’s often from a very privileged Western point of view. But what about where, if you don’t have vaccinations, you will die. It’s as simple as that. And so, anti vaccine makes me frustrated because it comes from quite a privileged space where a vaccination is not a matter of life or death.
Chloe Brotheridge: Definitely recommend getting vaccines. Anyway, thank you so much for everything that you’ve shared. I think you’re brilliant. Please, can you tell us where people can find out more about you and buy your book and that sort of thing.
How to connect with Pandora
Pandora: You can buy my book from any good retailer and you can find Doing it Right on your preferred podcast platform. And you can follow me on Twitter. It’s an egg. It’s got zero followers. Don’t get me started. And I’m on Instagram. I’m not very interesting on Instagram. I’m on Instagram at Pandora Sykes got I’m not very good at that.
Pandora: Thank you so much for having me.
Chloe Brotheridge: Thank you. Yes, brilliant. Thank you so much.
Thanks for listening
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